Creepy dudes

thank you, from a creepy old man.

Thanks for defending us creepy old men.

Exactly! There are piles of men, I think, who want information and don’t have the same support for that as women do. Men either already know – or pretend to know – everything about sex, and are labeled ‘casanovas’, or we don’t know and are labeled as’creepy’.

Oooh . . . definitely a post with lots of discussion sparks. One sort of off-topic observation I have is that only ONE of those guys actually looks of an age I’d call “old”.

Anyhoo . . . just out of curiosity I wonder how many of the “dirty old men” buy and actually read your book compared to how many women who might be prone to giving the dirty old men suspicious glares. I’ve no theory on this (well, maybe I have a small one), I’m just genuinely curious.

I love seeing men all gathered round to listen to a woman. I love seeing all of their mouths shut while a broad does the talking. Yeah!!!

excellent point indeed.

Very interesting post.

It’s strange that our society has place this image of “creepy old men” on any male over 30 that likes to watch porn, or discuss sex. I think it is wonderful that people of all different backgrounds and genders are coming to hear you (or anyone) speak about sexuality. The more the merrier, in my book.

Granted, some men may come to talks (sex books, art, etc) expecting a little more cheesecake…but I bet women do too. It’s just the way society operates – sex sells (whether the action or the word), and in the long run, if you’ve made just one person who came to a discussion expecting sex actually stop and think about sex in a new light, well, I think that’s pretty impressive.

There you go evangelizing again!

What do you expect? Feminism as forced on us in the ’70s essentially said sex was a male power play. These attitudes have carried over into modern society. It is “expected” that a man uses sex to prove his dominance; therefor older, less confident (alpha) looking men are expected to be trying to “make up” for their lack of power / position and are expected to be guilty of some form of perversion that denegrates women.

Why are men automatically assumed to be creepy just for showing interest in sex, while women have the option of being treated as slutty (in the negative sense) or empowered?

i don’t know that women necessarily have the option of being treated ‘slutty’ or ‘empowered’… even buying your book got me some ill-received raised eyebrows from the sales clerk at borders. but i do agree with that men that enjoy/seek out sex are automatically deemed ‘dirty old man.’
interesting post :)

Interesting post. As you say, Men are often ridiculed and (importantly) verbally emasculated for being “dirty old men,” with or without the old part, because they show any interest in sex. This disgust usually comes from women, since other men expressing interest to each other are more likely to get a high-five (though moral condemnation of a different sort can certainly show up instead).

Growing up as a man, there are few phenomena that have been more hurtful to me than exactly this sort of disgust for male sexuality shown on the part of women in close acquaintance with me. Often times it’s directed at older men, with “older” meaning either “over 25″ or just “I don’t think he’s hot.” But I personally have been acutely aware since the first time I heard such a comment that sooner or later, I will be “old,” so I have figured since I first became sexual that sooner or later I will be a “dirty old man” (like I’m not already?)

I think the sentiment might reflect a lack of interest in the person being spoken about. I see it as another face of the contempt shown by guys when they denigrate the sexual interest, energy or positivity of women they don’t personally think are attractive (too old, too large, too un-feminine, too whatever). It’s short-sighted and assumes that in order to interact intelligently or productively about sex, people need to be interested in each other. After 14 years of doing sex education, how many magnificent conversations about sex have I had with people I wasn’t the least bit attracted to? A whole lot of them, some of the very best and most illuminating conversations I’ve ever had about sex.

At the same time, I have encountered plenty of guys who WERE creepy, gross old men in my estimation, acting very inappropriately — but why does this have to be categorically different than the inappropriate behavior or ANYONE, regardless of gender and age? Inappropriate sexual behavior or interest should be addressed at its behavioral face value, not because the person who expressed it is the “wrong” sort of person, being “dirty,” “old,” or male.

“Why are men automatically assumed to be creepy . . . .” That assumption is generally made by women, some of whom feel threatened if a man gets on an elevator. We figure, that’s their problem.

Thomas Roche says:
“I see it as another face of the contempt shown by guys when they denigrate the sexual interest, energy or positivity of women they don’t personally think are attractive (too old, too large, too un-feminine, too whatever).”

I think this is absolutely true, especially with respect to anything that deviates from mainstream beauty standards. However, its also true that if such a criticism is made of a woman, often both women and men will often jump to defend her and attack the person making the judgment (especially on the Internet). When such a criticism is made of a man, it usually just floats.

“When such a criticism is made of a man, it usually just floats.”

File under “Life Isn’t Fair”

I was there and the guys were not creepy, at least not as far as I could tell. They asked good questions.

“Why are men automatically assumed to be creepy just for showing interest in sex”

Well, maybe because some really are and people tend to put labels based on the worst not the best.
That’s the kindof thinking, especially in the sex industry we have to fight with, but it will take a really long time to change the way the majority think. Till that happens older men interested in sex will be called creepy, escorts will be called whores who will scam you from all your money and webcam chathosts will be called whores.
That’s not nice. And with more people talking openly about the industry… That might change. I wish it did as soon as possible.

I definitely have dealt with inappropriate attention, advances, comments etc… from men at public events. There can be a creepy factor to some of them – usually those who are very shy and hover around me, but do not actually talk to me or who just try to touch my butt and then walk off.

But for the most part, I think it is just a mix of social awkwardness and not knowing how to interact with someone in the sex industry, not knowing how to discuss sex publicly. Not a creepy thing or an old thing. Just a consequence of sexual shame and all that jazz. It is such a harsh judgment to not allow men to be curious, inquisitive and unsure about sexuality.

Dacia – About your example of the would be john. I have had many of those at my presentations on indie Internet porn. Men who think by creating porn they can pay for sex more legally. It is very interesting. I always see right through them.

[...] Waking Vixen » Creepy dudes “A guy who is interested in sex – whether actively pursuing it, fantasizing, or researching it – is not automatically creepy, and I really wish people would stop treating desire and curiosity as a gross or offensive thing.” (tags: society men women sexuality sex) [...]

“Well, maybe because some really are and people tend to put labels based on the worst not the best.”

I think this is endemic of all of society… it’s prejudice which is so ingrained in everyone – woman, man, queer, straight, black, white, Hispanic, Asian, pink w/purple polka-dots – that often we don’t even realize we are doing it. I think that until we let go of some of these preconceived notions (such as: any man over 25 who is interested in sex is “old” or “creepy”) that the discussion on various topics (such as this) will always be stymied.

Anyhow. Great post, lots to think about.
:)

hmmm…

from a guy who has gotten both dirty looks…and smiles. One thing I have always noticed, and women feel free to confirm. If a guy is attractive ala Brad Pitt/Clooney whatever he does in any context is almost always met with a welcoming gesture, a swoon, a giddy up and lets go.
It’s not what you do, if you look good enough. It doesn’t matter.

Thanks for this post, Audacia. Sorry I didn’t make it out to any of your talks when you were in the Bay Area.

My own experience has been that the difference between “cute boy” and “creep” is about 10 or 15 years of aging. I’m still pretty much in the same sexual mindset as I was at when I was in my 20s, unfortunately, its just not in as pretty of a package. Such is life.

Its not like I even expect us “older” folks to be regarded as attractive. (Hell, even I don’t like my own aging.) Just don’t expect me to have hung up my libido by 40.

I am not so sure about the looks comment. At one work related orgy there was a young good looking guy that none of us gals could stand to be close to, much less fuck. He was a jerk and pushy and rude. The older, fatter type men got way more action. It was about the manners, not the looks.

Thank you for this.

[...] Here’s a wrap-up of my best posts here on Waking Vixen: Sex worker, other and More thoughts on sex worker/other The State of Alt according to Vegas Serious Hunk of Man, and the Shades of Gray – includes a pic of me at 19, with short green hair and a leather jacket How to be an ally to sex workers Authenticity Sex workers, class divides and fun with empowerment and degradation As it turns out, the Internet isn’t the answer to everything Book vs. blog: where to stick all the juicy details How the media is more exploitative than the sex industry Creepy dudes The internet is not a virtual streetcorner Anniversaries: The Museum of Sex Seeing straight ahead: the porn industry’s sexuality blinders [...]