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	<title>Comments on: Feminist Men and Words that Wound</title>
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	<link>http://www.wakingvixen.audaciaray.com/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/</link>
	<description>Audacia Ray&#039;s Adventures in Smart Sex Culture</description>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://www.wakingvixen.audaciaray.com/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/comment-page-1/#comment-75708</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:48:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wakingvixen.com/blog/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/#comment-75708</guid>
		<description>Hey.

&quot;To this man, and others who want to help: you need to listen.&quot;

I&#039;m sure you realise that no one who has adopted a world view based on a *structure* that allows only for the intersections of race and class and gender would ever feel the need to adjust their position based on listening to someone else&#039;s experience. Whatever the individual position, yours, or someone else&#039;s, it doesn&#039;t matter, as it can be easily explained away as lack of true understanding of the structural nature of the *system*. IE, you may *think* you&#039;re not exploited while in fact the mere existence of the criticised structure implies that you are, regardless of what you may think or say. To someone holding this opinion, your opposition to their telling you about your exploitation is similar to poor people voting for less economic redistribution because they believe in &quot;free enterprise&quot; - and it&#039;s considered, in a way, delusional. It&#039;s not an intellectual disrespect for individual experiences although it usually looks just like that, just a (in itself delusional) belief in having found the answers and trying to fit reality into it. To do that, you have to axiomatically believe that everything contradicting your worldview has been corrupted by the system and isn&#039;t aware of it&#039;s own oppression. Obviously, if you hold that position, ignoring and &quot;saving&quot; people who tell you to leave them alone is still the right thing to do...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey.</p>
<p>&#8220;To this man, and others who want to help: you need to listen.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure you realise that no one who has adopted a world view based on a *structure* that allows only for the intersections of race and class and gender would ever feel the need to adjust their position based on listening to someone else&#8217;s experience. Whatever the individual position, yours, or someone else&#8217;s, it doesn&#8217;t matter, as it can be easily explained away as lack of true understanding of the structural nature of the *system*. IE, you may *think* you&#8217;re not exploited while in fact the mere existence of the criticised structure implies that you are, regardless of what you may think or say. To someone holding this opinion, your opposition to their telling you about your exploitation is similar to poor people voting for less economic redistribution because they believe in &#8220;free enterprise&#8221; &#8211; and it&#8217;s considered, in a way, delusional. It&#8217;s not an intellectual disrespect for individual experiences although it usually looks just like that, just a (in itself delusional) belief in having found the answers and trying to fit reality into it. To do that, you have to axiomatically believe that everything contradicting your worldview has been corrupted by the system and isn&#8217;t aware of it&#8217;s own oppression. Obviously, if you hold that position, ignoring and &#8220;saving&#8221; people who tell you to leave them alone is still the right thing to do&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Gore-Gore Girl</title>
		<link>http://www.wakingvixen.audaciaray.com/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/comment-page-1/#comment-75614</link>
		<dc:creator>Gore-Gore Girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 14:10:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wakingvixen.com/blog/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/#comment-75614</guid>
		<description>A fantastic post, on a fantastic blog - thank you for articulating so many of my own frustrations as a writer, regarding these issues. Even in purportedly &quot;sex positive feminist&quot; texts, I find the author using subtle rhetorical phrasing such as &quot;used&quot; and it just makes my blood boil. When I try to gently question friends about their assumptions about sex workers, particularly with regard to class and nation (a nasty comment someone made about &quot;hookers in Mexico&quot; for example), they often get defensive, and basically tell me I&#039;m ignoring &quot;reality&quot; in order to prove my own feminist agenda. 

In addition, when I challenge certain feminist rhetoric by addressing their language and failure to acknowledge individual agency and voice, I am told I&#039;m ignoring a larger system of oppression. This leaves me feeling like I&#039;m in a bind - to address only the system feels to me like the individual women are mere passive shadows within a dominating hegemony. Well, can&#039;t I acknowledge a powerful system at the same time as acknowledging individual women&#039;s (and men&#039;s) voices? According to many, I can&#039;t.

Anyway, thank you for all you do - I am now a regular reader of your work, and it has made me feel like perhaps I&#039;m not some kind of naive product of my own internalized oppression.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A fantastic post, on a fantastic blog &#8211; thank you for articulating so many of my own frustrations as a writer, regarding these issues. Even in purportedly &#8220;sex positive feminist&#8221; texts, I find the author using subtle rhetorical phrasing such as &#8220;used&#8221; and it just makes my blood boil. When I try to gently question friends about their assumptions about sex workers, particularly with regard to class and nation (a nasty comment someone made about &#8220;hookers in Mexico&#8221; for example), they often get defensive, and basically tell me I&#8217;m ignoring &#8220;reality&#8221; in order to prove my own feminist agenda. </p>
<p>In addition, when I challenge certain feminist rhetoric by addressing their language and failure to acknowledge individual agency and voice, I am told I&#8217;m ignoring a larger system of oppression. This leaves me feeling like I&#8217;m in a bind &#8211; to address only the system feels to me like the individual women are mere passive shadows within a dominating hegemony. Well, can&#8217;t I acknowledge a powerful system at the same time as acknowledging individual women&#8217;s (and men&#8217;s) voices? According to many, I can&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Anyway, thank you for all you do &#8211; I am now a regular reader of your work, and it has made me feel like perhaps I&#8217;m not some kind of naive product of my own internalized oppression.</p>
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		<title>By: Angela Harms</title>
		<link>http://www.wakingvixen.audaciaray.com/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/comment-page-1/#comment-75613</link>
		<dc:creator>Angela Harms</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 01:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wakingvixen.com/blog/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/#comment-75613</guid>
		<description>I so wish the first thing these guys would do is work for legalization. Legalization honors and respects women&#039;s autonomy (&amp; men&#039;s, for that matter), and frees law enforcement to concentrate on protecting people from coercion (not from their own choices).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I so wish the first thing these guys would do is work for legalization. Legalization honors and respects women&#8217;s autonomy (&amp; men&#8217;s, for that matter), and frees law enforcement to concentrate on protecting people from coercion (not from their own choices).</p>
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		<title>By: Audacia Ray</title>
		<link>http://www.wakingvixen.audaciaray.com/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/comment-page-1/#comment-75612</link>
		<dc:creator>Audacia Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 21:24:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wakingvixen.com/blog/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/#comment-75612</guid>
		<description>Am insightful comment, with history, emailed by &lt;b&gt;Layne Winklebleck&lt;/b&gt;:

Brannon may call himself a feminist man, but he is a sex-negative one, and those of us involved in battles for freedom of expression have long known him for his strongly negative views of adult entertainment and sex-workers.

         In 1991, in a salient example, the National Organization for Women held their national convention in New York City. At that time, Brannon had a lot of influence with the New York Chapter of NOW. The convention happened to coincide with pending legislation in the Congress, an Omnibus bill that would have, among other things, incorporated some of the radical-feminist theories of law professor Catherine MacKinnon into federal law. It was a pivotal period of time, because there had been much talk and a certain momentum favoring MacKinnonâ€™s view of adult entertainment as a violation of womenâ€™s rights.

         NOW had been invited to submit testimony to Congress and plans had been made by many of the powers-that-be in NOW -- particularly from the New York (Brannon -- currently and I think then, co-chair of the New York chapterâ€™s Task Force on â€œTrafficking, Pornography and Prostitutionâ€) and L.A. Chapters (Tammy Bruce) -- to testify in favor of the proposed law. In the end, after a nasty and bruising debate, NOW (National) representatives withdrew their offer to testify before Congress. The withdrawal resulted directly from the work of a group of twelve anti-censorship feminists, heroes all, who had come to the convention to fight for freedom of expression. Despite vehement opposition, with a lot of name-calling, the group won out through political wisdom and a refusal to back down. Some names may be familiar: The New York 12 (in alphabetical order) were: Priscilla Alexander, Wendy Chapkis, Miki Demarest, Betty Dodson, Phyllis Frank, Nina Hartley, Bobby Lilly, Carol Queen, Annie Sprinkle, Kat Sunlove, Carol Vance and Veronica Vera.

         The group gathered in New York armed with a procedural weapon. In earlier months the San Francisco NOW Chapter had acted favorably on recommendations from a Task Force on Pornography and Prostitution, chaired by Miki Demarest (who was, in her day job, publisher of Spectator Magazine). Those recommendations generally recognized that women who work as sex workers and in adult entertainment were women whose choices should be respected.

         The San Francisco Chapter, in effect, had taken a radically different position than the New York and L.A. chapters, which saw women in sex work and adult entertainment as victims. The different views, in accordance with the rules of the organization, had to be reconciled before NOW could take a position before Congress. Thatâ€™s what the New York 12 argued, and they refused to be shouted down or intimidated. It was a battlefield. To this day, participants still remember the pain of the vituperative, ugly things that were said, with Brannon in the thick of it.

         Brannon also has developed, in some circles, a reputation for angry, demeaning, and insensitive behaviors. See for example: http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/ohBROTHER/retrogeov1.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Am insightful comment, with history, emailed by <b>Layne Winklebleck</b>:</p>
<p>Brannon may call himself a feminist man, but he is a sex-negative one, and those of us involved in battles for freedom of expression have long known him for his strongly negative views of adult entertainment and sex-workers.</p>
<p>         In 1991, in a salient example, the National Organization for Women held their national convention in New York City. At that time, Brannon had a lot of influence with the New York Chapter of NOW. The convention happened to coincide with pending legislation in the Congress, an Omnibus bill that would have, among other things, incorporated some of the radical-feminist theories of law professor Catherine MacKinnon into federal law. It was a pivotal period of time, because there had been much talk and a certain momentum favoring MacKinnonâ€™s view of adult entertainment as a violation of womenâ€™s rights.</p>
<p>         NOW had been invited to submit testimony to Congress and plans had been made by many of the powers-that-be in NOW &#8212; particularly from the New York (Brannon &#8212; currently and I think then, co-chair of the New York chapterâ€™s Task Force on â€œTrafficking, Pornography and Prostitutionâ€) and L.A. Chapters (Tammy Bruce) &#8212; to testify in favor of the proposed law. In the end, after a nasty and bruising debate, NOW (National) representatives withdrew their offer to testify before Congress. The withdrawal resulted directly from the work of a group of twelve anti-censorship feminists, heroes all, who had come to the convention to fight for freedom of expression. Despite vehement opposition, with a lot of name-calling, the group won out through political wisdom and a refusal to back down. Some names may be familiar: The New York 12 (in alphabetical order) were: Priscilla Alexander, Wendy Chapkis, Miki Demarest, Betty Dodson, Phyllis Frank, Nina Hartley, Bobby Lilly, Carol Queen, Annie Sprinkle, Kat Sunlove, Carol Vance and Veronica Vera.</p>
<p>         The group gathered in New York armed with a procedural weapon. In earlier months the San Francisco NOW Chapter had acted favorably on recommendations from a Task Force on Pornography and Prostitution, chaired by Miki Demarest (who was, in her day job, publisher of Spectator Magazine). Those recommendations generally recognized that women who work as sex workers and in adult entertainment were women whose choices should be respected.</p>
<p>         The San Francisco Chapter, in effect, had taken a radically different position than the New York and L.A. chapters, which saw women in sex work and adult entertainment as victims. The different views, in accordance with the rules of the organization, had to be reconciled before NOW could take a position before Congress. Thatâ€™s what the New York 12 argued, and they refused to be shouted down or intimidated. It was a battlefield. To this day, participants still remember the pain of the vituperative, ugly things that were said, with Brannon in the thick of it.</p>
<p>         Brannon also has developed, in some circles, a reputation for angry, demeaning, and insensitive behaviors. See for example: <a href="http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/ohBROTHER/retrogeov1.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/ohBROTHER/retrogeov1.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Audacia Ray</title>
		<link>http://www.wakingvixen.audaciaray.com/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/comment-page-1/#comment-75611</link>
		<dc:creator>Audacia Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wakingvixen.com/blog/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/#comment-75611</guid>
		<description>@Evelyn - There&#039;s a Sex Worker Literati event in NYC on October 1, so no can do. I&#039;ve considered going to that conference in the past (other colleagues have) but I&#039;m not quite sure I&#039;m up for it. I AM, however, keen on finding ways to engage that will challenge people who are overly simplistic about their approach to the sex industry without making me cry non-stop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Evelyn &#8211; There&#8217;s a Sex Worker Literati event in NYC on October 1, so no can do. I&#8217;ve considered going to that conference in the past (other colleagues have) but I&#8217;m not quite sure I&#8217;m up for it. I AM, however, keen on finding ways to engage that will challenge people who are overly simplistic about their approach to the sex industry without making me cry non-stop.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Goodyear</title>
		<link>http://www.wakingvixen.audaciaray.com/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/comment-page-1/#comment-75610</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Goodyear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:15:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wakingvixen.com/blog/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/#comment-75610</guid>
		<description>Although we all feel vitriolic at times like that I doubt it will achieve much other than to further entrench the prejudices of the object. This man is merely preaching the gospel of a certain camp who follow the &#039;trafficking&#039; coat tails. However it is important to remember by no means do all people in the anti-trafficking movement follow this gospel and this needs pointing out - to the audience at least, if not the perpetrator. 

I am however seriously concerned at the uses being made of this week&#039;s ILO report on coerced labor. The text does not support the furor, but already we have seen a political call for the Swedish solution in Germany based on the report, which should be read in the context of all ILO publications on this, and those of UNAIDS. If anything the report emphasises that coerced sexual labor is declining relative to other forms of coerced labor. See also John Davies&#039; recent study &quot;I am not Natasha&quot; (University of Amsterdam 2009).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although we all feel vitriolic at times like that I doubt it will achieve much other than to further entrench the prejudices of the object. This man is merely preaching the gospel of a certain camp who follow the &#8216;trafficking&#8217; coat tails. However it is important to remember by no means do all people in the anti-trafficking movement follow this gospel and this needs pointing out &#8211; to the audience at least, if not the perpetrator. </p>
<p>I am however seriously concerned at the uses being made of this week&#8217;s ILO report on coerced labor. The text does not support the furor, but already we have seen a political call for the Swedish solution in Germany based on the report, which should be read in the context of all ILO publications on this, and those of UNAIDS. If anything the report emphasises that coerced sexual labor is declining relative to other forms of coerced labor. See also John Davies&#8217; recent study &#8220;I am not Natasha&#8221; (University of Amsterdam 2009).</p>
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		<title>By: evelyn</title>
		<link>http://www.wakingvixen.audaciaray.com/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/comment-page-1/#comment-75609</link>
		<dc:creator>evelyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wakingvixen.com/blog/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/#comment-75609</guid>
		<description>could you please crash this fucker? (for many of the reasons mentioned above)
http://www.prostitutionconference.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>could you please crash this fucker? (for many of the reasons mentioned above)<br />
<a href="http://www.prostitutionconference.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.prostitutionconference.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Charlie (Colorado)</title>
		<link>http://www.wakingvixen.audaciaray.com/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/comment-page-1/#comment-75608</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie (Colorado)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:11:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wakingvixen.com/blog/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/#comment-75608</guid>
		<description>Another tyrant telling you &quot;its for your own good, dear.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another tyrant telling you &#8220;its for your own good, dear.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Mattilda Bernstein Sycamore</title>
		<link>http://www.wakingvixen.audaciaray.com/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/comment-page-1/#comment-75607</link>
		<dc:creator>Mattilda Bernstein Sycamore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 07:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wakingvixen.com/blog/2009/08/23/feminist-men-and-words-that-wound/#comment-75607</guid>
		<description>&quot;But I am not &#039;used&#039; - and a word like that does violence to my psyche and my ability to speak out and maintain my autonomy and my personhood. And that, in my book, is not what a feminist man should be doing with his words.&quot;

Gorgeous -- thank you!

Love --
mattilda</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But I am not &#8216;used&#8217; &#8211; and a word like that does violence to my psyche and my ability to speak out and maintain my autonomy and my personhood. And that, in my book, is not what a feminist man should be doing with his words.&#8221;</p>
<p>Gorgeous &#8212; thank you!</p>
<p>Love &#8211;<br />
mattilda</p>
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